S2 E3 - Innovating for a Sustainable Future - Gustavo Vinacua
Taking the ten, fifteen, twenty minutes it might take to leaf through the very lengthy, complicated and complex profile that Gustavo Vinacua has on LinkedIn would lead you to believe that he has done a little bit of everything. To us in the FinTech world, he was synonymous with innovation and synonymous with BBVA's rise to the powerhouse of new digital signature that it has been between say 02/2014. Listen to this episode to understand not only his journey from then, but what of his principles are permeating today into the work that he's doing as an investor. And if you will, as a planet changer. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Tales from the Fintech Crypt.
Duena Blomstrom:I have a special guest here with me today. We're going to talk about our past in financial technology and our future in all kinds of industries. So welcome to the show, Gustavo.
Gustavo Vinacua:Thank you so much, Joanna. Thanks for having me.
Duena Blomstrom:No, absolutely. I know that your name is one that's resonating with many people in our industry, and that is because you've done many of things. And I'll kind of let you walk us through your journey a little bit, if you'd like. But kind of how far back would you say you've landed into this world of fintech?
Gustavo Vinacua:That feels like a long, long time ago. And yeah, I guess it was 02/2009 or something like that. So it's been a while and yeah, quite a journey. Yeah, my career has been all of, most of it in banking sector, also in the telco business, in all cases around innovation, the intersection between that technology and entrepreneurship. So yeah, a lot around connecting with the ecosystem, exposing ourselves to others, and then, of course, creating value out of that.
Duena Blomstrom:So would you say that part of your the fact that your journey was quite as successful as it's been has to do with where you were in terms of the organizations you've worked with over time and so on. Is it because you've kind of encountered places that were open hearted and open minded? Tell us a little bit about what you think was your key success factor in those places.
Gustavo Vinacua:Yeah, the context of course has a lot to do. I was fortunate enough to my financial industry part of my career. It's been almost all of that at BBVA And BBVA is a really very special place. Of course, not perfect, but it was a place that was open to, very early on, to connect with others outside and to expose some of the assets to do stuff with others. And in terms of the culture inside BBVA, it was pretty much a place where I remember proposing stuff that was kind of strange and wild for others in the industry.
Gustavo Vinacua:And I would get it, okay, go ahead and do that. So yeah, that was definitely something. Of course, I'm also interested in pushing the boundaries. So that's something that comes with my character and personality. So that's also that.
Gustavo Vinacua:And then people around me. So I was very fortunate with everyone around me at BBVA. And also at the wider ecosystem, would say, if you were around as well, and others are part of the other people that come to your pockets. So it was, was a few very, very, very purposeful and trying to move things around me as well at those days, I guess that was also a part of it.
Duena Blomstrom:I think that's an interesting point that we should probably emphasize for those of us who weren't around at the time. I know that we have listeners that are new to the topic of fintech and so on, and they're always interested in these like old stories of ours. I think Gustaf was being very modest about is the fact that in 2011, '20 '12, and so on, there were very few places that were genuinely innovative. And BBVA was one of those creators of innovation. Granted, towards the end of things, people were claiming that it had went too far.
Duena Blomstrom:It's not really translating things into practice. There were many, many things to kind of have a go at. But realistically, it is undoubtedly the first bank that has genuinely opened doors. And it's a very good point you've made earlier. I want to emphasize it.
Duena Blomstrom:The fact that it has allowed providers to play with the data has been absolutely seminal for the industry. And this is at a time that for our younger listeners, there was no such thing as open banking or a way to touch data of any banks. And I think for those of you that are making financial technology today, it's important to be grateful because it the time where we had to do the same exact things with much less in terms of access to information, data and databases of any banks. So for that, it's genuinely important moment in the history of fintech that BBVA has opened doors. And again, it has bred this innovation lake of ideas, I think.
Duena Blomstrom:So that's very cool for yourself to have been inside that and seen probably what was a fair amount of tension between what would be cool to make and what can be made. So how does that Yeah,
Gustavo Vinacua:absolutely. And I think it's fair what you're saying and what some of those comments around not being able to fully execute and get the fruits of those efforts, I think it's just fair. In some cases, you just expect the fruit to be just very evident on the type of projects you're bringing out there. In some cases, wasn't like that. But all the energy and the push inside the company to allow us to just have a leaner compliance, or just figure out a way to go through seven innovation committees to allow us to go out with a product.
Gustavo Vinacua:All of those things, we push the boundaries, figure out ways to smooth those processes. And those are the ones that then allowed others inside the company to end up launching products in a better way, in a simple way, in a faster way. So the contribution was there. And it is only fair for some of those comments to come up because in some cases, some of the projects you just launch end up bringing benefits not evident and not visible, at least to everyone.
Duena Blomstrom:Safe on innovation committees, is that what they used to have before they streamlined?
Gustavo Vinacua:Yes. I'm not Exaggerating. Oh, I'm not exaggerating. And I know of other banks having same or more. And it was really like that.
Gustavo Vinacua:And if you are part of the ecosystem, you can start counting the typical things that you will get from compliance, the technical piece, and this and that. And then it is maybe seven. In any case, we figured out to go and smooth that, figure out a way to bring those that we call shapers, which is legal, compliance, IT and everyone involved, inside the process, part of the process, some of them, they ended up being the best advocates, ambassadors, moving to digital. So yeah, yeah, it was like that. It's not like that anymore, of course.
Gustavo Vinacua:Right.
Duena Blomstrom:Yeah, those were the days. Those were the beginning days of kind of all of us trying to understand what does innovation really mean as compared to just necessary change in the digital systems that we had at the time and they were not fit for purpose. With that said, again, a lot of the industry good ideas came from things that BVA has tried. Let's face it, were probably the first bank to have done a digital wallet in Europe, the first bank to have done PFM in Europe in a very shaky fashion, I would say, because you didn't play with the right players at the time. I think you weren't a sale for many years.
Duena Blomstrom:But I remember those conversations and I remember what stage the other banks in the region were at. I mean, we were at the time working with, you know, Santander and Sabadell and everyone else. The difference in comprehending new technology and digital in BV versus other banks was monumental, I would say, from 2010 to 2020 when I looked at last. So yeah, it's an interesting story that you've been part of.
Gustavo Vinacua:Yeah. And then picking on something that you said is, it was not only the digital piece that of course it is still is a big part of the driver for change in banking, but it was also then picking up the sustainability part. I remember our chairman these days, the UVACE chairman, I'm not there anymore, but I guess I still feel like that. Carlos Torres, he brought the sustainability into the strategy. That was for me something that also triggered my interest around sustainability.
Gustavo Vinacua:That's a different conversation altogether, of course. But BBVA was of the first ones really paying attention and doing real stuff in channeling funds into the right businesses, in embedding sustainability in the strategy. And yeah, that pretty much shows that leadership role of BBVA in trying to move and evolve the financial industry into the right direction.
Duena Blomstrom:I mean, you were part of a very, very interesting moment of it. So thank you for giving us a little bit of insight in that. Speaking of which, I'm going to ask this because I'm curious, if nothing else. What part of that was internal work on human systems. And is that kind of, was that something that the bank was looking into seriously?
Duena Blomstrom:Like, how do we genuinely change mindsets towards transformation? How do we make people be more emotionally intelligent? How do we make teams have the right kind of actions and behaviors to be performance and so on? Was that part of the innovation bit or was that considered more business as usual and we shouldn't be touching it for now?
Gustavo Vinacua:No, I wouldn't say it was the innovation bit. I would be crediting myself for having an important role in that. But innovation was in a way spearheading all this. I remember at the very, very beginning we were testing Agile and then not just Agile in terms of the methodology to develop software, but then Agile in the framework, sort of a systemic way in terms of the mindset, right? And then in the end, the whole bank ended up transforming the organization into the agile organization.
Gustavo Vinacua:And thousands of people these days work in that way that is creating a more liquid sort of environment. But along that, we created the purpose altogether, everyone involved in creating the purpose. We were talking about the management model, meaning that you
Duena Blomstrom:would have
Gustavo Vinacua:a safe environment, psychological environment, meaning that you would feel safe in there to just speak up and give your views. I remember talking.
Duena Blomstrom:That's really awesome. If you remember any of the people that were working with that, I'd love to have a chat with them at some point.
Gustavo Vinacua:Yeah, absolutely. I know Yeah,
Duena Blomstrom:I'd love to read.
Gustavo Vinacua:Very much into this. And I remember the talent and culture people bringing the topic of feedback and training each of us in this is you just give it this way, just get it in this way. So it was a lot of different things all at the same time that would prepare the organization to be a place where you would be able to be performing, as you were saying, feel great and so on. So, yeah. Happy to connect you with some of the people
Duena Blomstrom:Thanks. I'll keep you to that. I'll keep you to that. I'm just curious. People that have managed it.
Duena Blomstrom:And it's very rare, to be honest with you, like having gone through many other industries. And I know that both you and I are not identifying as in fintech anymore. But kind of what you what we see, I'm sure both of us in in various places, is that attitude towards genuine openness, innovation, and the way to do that in a sustainable fashion that will maintain our kids in a normal world is all connected to practically having this base of capability, that's human capability. And I think that's kind the most sustainable thing we can do for ourselves these days is to focus on the human element of everything and attempt to move that.
Gustavo Vinacua:Absolutely.
Duena Blomstrom:I would say that.
Gustavo Vinacua:Yeah, absolutely. I keep being active as a mentor of Rise Up, the Money 2020 initiative on inclusion and diversity, especially for women having more important prominent role in business. And I think we need to keep doing more and more. We're still too far from where we should be. And then the other part, which is the one that I'm very much involved in these days, which is sustainability.
Gustavo Vinacua:It's also very much linked to the purpose of people in life, right? So we can still do business, healthy business, and do good things for the planet and at the same time.
Duena Blomstrom:Ethical and business does exist and it is going to be more and more necessary from here on, I would say, and people being able to kind of be mindful about what they're doing genuinely in a sense that that leaves good marks on our lives and planet. It's important. So I really am glad to hear. And I'm going to ask you a little bit about what you see the connection being between fintech and sustainability and kind of what can fintech do more. Before that, and just kind of to see where you fall on this, in terms of something you said earlier on women in the industry, and I tend to have a very strange opinion on this.
Duena Blomstrom:And I famously once told Barclays that if they want me to lead a women's only event, they should have a midgets only event as well. And they didn't like that. But I just, I lived in the industry at a time where it was so fragmented in terms of girls can be in this corner and pretend that they do understand finance and technology, that it took a lot of get out of here or all on the same level sort of fight to get anywhere. But equally, it was a time that the discussion on diversity in the industry was just starting. And it feels like it ended abruptly, if you ask me.
Duena Blomstrom:It started taking off and finding more intelligent ways of bringing women into the evacuation. And it just kind of tapered off and stopped that. Yeah, it's hard to bring women anywhere. And let's face it that the diversity conversations in the world are in question today, and they are under attack today. And I think it is more important than ever for at least us in Europe, where we're still one of the last bastions of we can do this the right way to keep pushing on those areas.
Duena Blomstrom:So thank you so much for your work in that area. But how many women are there now as compared to ten years ago in FinTech, you think?
Gustavo Vinacua:I don't have the numbers, but I think I can imagine that we're not a lot better at all recently, but it was really on very specific markets in Spain. And it was really, I would say, shame not really growing at all. So yeah, we still have a lot to do. And I like your comment on Europe needing to keep the essence of what Europe stands for. And this is also a bigger conversation when it comes to ambition.
Gustavo Vinacua:And when you, of course, we know that it's a fragmented market, the European Union, and it's difficult to scale and there's a lot of things. And when you see numbers, we don't have as many investments as The US, We don't have as many unicorns or this or that. But then I would love to have the ambition. I don't think it's about ambition. I would love to have less friction and easier to scale and this and that.
Gustavo Vinacua:But what I don't want is that we want to just mimic the whole thing that comes from The US. And I just use it as an example, it's a personal opinion, but I don't want the Elon Musk type of thing. Of course, there's good things about what he has achieved and everything. But then we could have more ambition. We could figure out solving some stuff that we know of.
Gustavo Vinacua:We should go quicker. But let's not focus on mimicking the characters and the type of things that most of them, they don't really like it either.
Duena Blomstrom:I'm very happy to be honest on this podcast, and whoever doesn't like it can stop listening to it. But nothing of happening in The US is necessarily it's not necessary. It's a good idea right now. It feels to me like it is terrifying, and I can understand. I now have you know, we all have hundreds of colleagues in The US, and it's it is a terrifying time for many, many people.
Duena Blomstrom:Hopefully, is just a moment of bravado and things will settle down in an elegant fashion. But if not, then realistically, in the area we're in only, and that is South Of Spain, we have seen an absolute influx of Americans that are no longer safe where they are, and they need to go places where life is decent and normal, and that's not The US in some places. So, yeah, thank you for putting that out there. We can do, and it's a good point, we can do capitalism without it having to be nauseous and negative and killing those around us. So I like that angle a lot.
Duena Blomstrom:What you do today, that's a big concern, isn't it? So tell us more about where you're at today and what you're building.
Gustavo Vinacua:Yeah, totally. So and it has a lot to do, as you said, because we can do healthy businesses and still be good to the planet and society, meaning profitable businesses. So that's what I'm doing. I decided to quit my corporate career and joined forces with two co founders founding Net Positive Labs. We're an innovation studio and a venture builder on a side.
Gustavo Vinacua:So we help companies adapt their businesses to make sure that they can keep growing and being more and more profitable. But at the same time, they would just have a better impact, more positive impact in society and environment. So we combine circular economy and regenerative economics with innovation, sustainable innovation. So things from, again, circular economy, waste management, energy. And we try to help them out adapt what they have these days, and also identify new opportunities.
Gustavo Vinacua:In some cases, we help them build new ventures, new businesses that are going to have the sustainability angle. It's for profit, of course, as you said, in terms of we can do capitalism, but also with the right purpose. So it's for profit. We find ways to make it profitable and still have a better impact. So that's what we do.
Duena Blomstrom:That's very awesome. More initiatives and efforts like yours are needed in the world without a doubt. And from what you see today, what is the hot intersection between, would we say, finance and sustainability? I mean, we've just had, I think by the time our episode comes out, we've just had Mateo on the show who has spoken extensively about why it's important to have inclusion in various areas where there's no such thing. In our case, because we come from these so called highly digitized country, to put it mildly, that's not necessarily quite as much of an emergency, but there are places in the world where it is.
Duena Blomstrom:So what do you see in your new venture?
Gustavo Vinacua:Yeah. So there's plenty of intersection between sustainability and fintech. FinTech is in the hands, is in our daily activities. Of course, payments is an easy way to see that. But managing your finance, everything, it's in the end part of our daily lives.
Gustavo Vinacua:And in the same way, sustainability is part of our daily lives. The green gas emissions are part of our daily activities. When you move from one point to another, when you buy something, when you produce something just to be sold, whatever, right? So in that sense, there's, of course, there's a lot to be done in terms of financial inclusion, as you know. And we've been doing that in Mexico, where it's more evident, I would say, but there's a lot of financial inclusion to be done in Europe as well and in other places.
Gustavo Vinacua:And that is part of the ESG. Sometimes we forget that the S is for social. So we got to keep doing stuff and not just for the environment. And there's ways to do sustainable and also profitable financial inclusion. We have just done something in Mexico, very interesting in that sense.
Gustavo Vinacua:And then finding ways to channel the funds in the right direction, of course, but selling products or services, doing renting stuff where there's a lot of insurance that can go in it, helping SMEs in figuring out their ways to embrace sustainability, supply chains. You know that Scope three is huge in so many industries and helping them to go and find ways to do that in a more resilient way also allows to do some supply chain financing embedded with sustainability targets. Interesting. And I'm forgetting all the, of course, reporting and stuff that needs to happen. But we have seen a lot also in lending, lending with specific targets.
Gustavo Vinacua:You can find ways to have specific incentives around lending that would foster a more sustainable practice. So yeah, there's plenty.
Duena Blomstrom:I like that. I like that a lot because it's not as clear as I would like it to be that if we genuinely want this cascade of impact, then we need to gear funding of all kinds, whether it's VC funding or institutional funding or lending to create more good impact as a cascade effect. And it's not as evident as that. And I am actually, I was going to ask you about this. It does feel to me like, and potentially this is just my feeling and it's not correct, but almost like Europe has a little bit closed their appetite window for innovation in the same way that it existed, I don't know, seven, eight years ago.
Duena Blomstrom:I would say that it's a lot less open and a lot less willing to bring new stuff in, in a sense. What I see is, like, the funding, if you look at new funding for startups that are doing even impactful things, it's a lot more reduced than we would have thought. And I know that the world thinks that the European Union is functioning on nothing but redistributing people's taxes in various unclear ways. But practically, I do not see as much funding as I would have liked to have seen for new enterprises. I'm a I'm still a mentor for many boot camps and and incubators.
Duena Blomstrom:Complaint is much louder these days, if you wish, in terms of there's no such thing as grants, there's no such thing as governments that are super involved in moving social enterprises. So there's the gap I see in some places. Do you think that this is kind of fair for Spain as well? Or is it just more of a European in other places?
Gustavo Vinacua:Look, I think that it's fair what you're saying. I do see AI wave sort of awaking a lot of the European sort of appetite around doing stuff faster and nurturing and supporting the wider innovation ecosystem and entrepreneurial ecosystem to embrace AI in this case. I think that's the trigger that is in everyone. The sustainability part, I hope all the geopolitics and stuff happening, which is frightening. Of course, it's not really slowing down the sustainability agenda as much as it has been doing.
Gustavo Vinacua:But no, I'm positive. I'm optimistic. I think that things are going to start to happen. There's so many things we could be doing. Some other examples of the stuff that we do is secondary markets.
Gustavo Vinacua:So finding ways to keep stuff alive and extend the life cycle of products. And that is something that has proven business case and it could be scaled throughout the different markets. So I see more stuff happening. So I'm optimistic in that sense.
Duena Blomstrom:That's good to hear. I'm glad that I was pessimistic on that front. But here's a question for you that I haven't actually asked anyone before, and I don't it's more of an open question. It's not necessarily something I'm expecting you to immediately answer. But I don't seem to see enough, how do I put this, human workplace in the sustainability space, if that makes sense.
Duena Blomstrom:It tends to reason and we all kind of agree in theory, but in practice, very little is done that what we are going to be left with as unique selling point for us as individuals is going to be our humanity now in this direct head to head with AI that knows all the things and can do all the things. So what we have uniquely is, to my mind, what sustainability means is what we can still count on in the future. I would have expected there to be a wave of, I don't know, hundreds of companies teaching you personally how to be a better leader or thousands of companies trying to make sure that, you know, kind of we've rebuilt our culture for telepathic understanding of each other's objectives. I don't know, but I'm saying that that entire area of what we need to do so that we make humans sustainable is not really included in sustainability in as clear of effect. Is there a reason for that?
Duena Blomstrom:Why are we only talking about energy and not human emotions as well?
Gustavo Vinacua:No, that's a very good point. I think that probably this is early days, even when sustainability has been around for decades, but I would see the revamping and energizing of sustainability is quite nascent. But you're so right. I guess that we, in the social part of the sustainability on the ESG thing, it's been very much focused on those very evident cases where you need to put some effort. And this case that you are describing, the AI, I think it's definitely been more prominent in the last few years, even when it's been there for decades as well.
Gustavo Vinacua:So totally agree. We need to do more and put a lot of content and meaning into that social part because it is an important element in the AI. Wouldn't say it's a battle, but it feels like a battle already, right? We need to find ways to prepare people and that's no joke. The learning part is definitely important here to make sure that we don't leave many behind, right?
Gustavo Vinacua:So ultimately, we need to start doing more. So that's a good white space to work on.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. So if anyone's listening to this and you're still inside the belly of the beast, and you're a banker who has or fin tech of any kind, you have always seen where we should have done something on the human side, just come talk to Gustavo and I, and maybe we'll start a new branch that's human sustainability in enterprises. Come up with a couple of ideas, talk to us about it, and we'll try and guide you towards making them happen.
Gustavo Vinacua:Absolutely.
Duena Blomstrom:Sounds really good. I'm really glad we've gone through quite a number of things. Of course, we haven't exhausted by far our long journey and so on. We should do another episode together at Money twenty twenty if we have time after a couple of our events. But if not, I'd love to have this conversation continue on LinkedIn.
Duena Blomstrom:Anyone seeing this episode can go ahead and get in touch with both of us and continue learning about your amazing journey. But thank you so much for coming over today, Gustavo, giving us this amazing perspective, not only about our region, but what has happened as someone who's had a hat of both an innovator and a banker and an entrepreneur from here on. Thanks a lot.
Gustavo Vinacua:Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.